You know…it’s been a while since I have been able to deliver a nce, through pwnage takedown of ignroance and bigotry. Thanks to Lydia Lee (via her “Julie Meadows” blog), I now have that opportunity.
Julie/Lydia did a post last week wheras she compared the tactics of the AIDS Healthcare Foundation in their support of a proposed ordinance in Los Angeles County which would mandate the use of condoms for all porn production shoots, with the campaign against gay marriage/gay civil unions. She pointed out the direct similarities between the two campaigns, both in the stark tone of absolute fear of the sky falling if gay people are allowed to “destroy” traditional marriage” or porn performers aren’t forced to wear condoms and other forms of “barrier protection” for the good of society and their own “protection” from STI’s.
Well…a reader named “s0lution” didn’t take to well with Lydia’s comparison, and wrote this comment:
I didn’t see any stereotypes or fear tactics in the little video? Adults CAN do what they want. But why do they want to redefine an institution that has existed for most of recorded history, is central in the 3 biggest world religions, and not to mention is natural? The institution of marriage is between one man and one woman. It’s the basis of the family unit. The ones who are on the attack are those who want to redefine this institution, and the defenders of the institution are not trying to put any group in its place or make homosexuality a crime – they are simply defending a pillar of society. By the way, the vote in California to ban gay marriage was the will of the people, not some trickery by the Mormons (but that’s pretty funny to think about). Those who are attacking the institution will stop at nothing, including using the courts to circumvent the will of the people. Albeit, civil rights should never be up for a vote, but forcing an existing institution apply to something completely different is not a right and was never a “right”.
You cannot legislate morality. But you actually CAN legislate human behavior – the behavior of assaulting someone is illegal – many behaviors are legislated, as they should be for the sake of society. Behaving in a way which violates the rights of others is legislated against.
I completely agree about decriminalization and dropping useless laws. America is becoming a police state.
I find it interesting that s0lution drops the concern about a “police state” at the end, even as he openly advocates that preventing gay folk from marrying (and by inferrence, even existing) by enforcing sodomy laws and denying them any protections taken for granted by “traditional couples” is perfectly OK as “legislating behavior”.
Just as sophistrous and duplicitious, though, is his (I will assume the masculine here) assertion that those who supported Proposition 8 to outlaw gay marriage and gay civil unions in California are just concerned conservative civilians who don’t want to “make homosexuality a crime”…as if the stated and not-so-thinly veiled tactics and words of groups like the National Organization for Marriage, the American Family Association, the Family Research Council, and other groups which have openly boosted Prop 8 simply are just flippant words.
Julie attempted to respond to his comment by sticking to her main points about the comparison between the Prop 8 and AHF condom mandate campaigns:
The problem is that now tax incentives are wrapped up in this purely religious institution, so it becomes an equal rights issue.
I just had a pretty good discussion about it in an interview. If the government had opted to give tax breaks to people with children–regardless of marital status–it would have made more sense. Instead, they decided to give tax incentives to only married people–regardless of whether or not they have children–and there is a population of our society now that have families and care for dependents yet cannot get the same tax breaks as “married” couples.
Not only that, but very proactive steps have been taken to ban gay marriage where it was once legal. Accommodating gay couples with the same tax breaks man/woman marriages get, gay marriage was legal in California, until Mormons from Utah started scaring people through commercials with the idea that gays will make our children gay, etc, etc. The video above is a passive-aggressive proactive step towards stealing human rights. Gay couples love no more or less than straight couples, and as citizens of our society, are entitled to the same tax breaks as every other couple. That is my opinion because it makes sense. There wouldn’t even be an issue if our government hadn’t granted rights to one section of our great society while ignoring another. It’s not a question of religion, because I have no personal interest in disproving what another human being believes. It has everything to do with equal rights.
That in and of itself is worthy, but I felt that it didn’t address the core belief that s0lution was attempting to unleash on the thread that it was pefectly acceptible for “the majority” of Christians to impose their beliefs on others. So, therefore, I decided to intervene with this comment:
Sorry, s0lution, but you are simply wrong about the attack on gay marriage, as well as the motives of supporters of “marriage”. At least, in my opinion.
First off, merely because a majority of the voters voted for Proposition 8 did not make it any less unconstitutional or any less a grievous act of discrimination against gays or lesbians wanting to have legitimate civil or social recognition for their loving relationships, or to have some of the same financial and social protections that heterosexuals have taken for granted. The California Supreme Court and various federal courts have already ruled Prop 8 as unconstitutional, so the point of “the will of the people” is simply moot. Besides, basic human equality should never be subjected to a plebiscite.
Secondly…you ignore the basic fact that the most fervent proponents of Prop 8 do indeed fundamentally and feverently oppose not only the recognition of same-sex marriage, but even the legitimacy and legality of consensual same-sex acts amongst adults. In short, they use their preexisting social and political power to impose THEIR assumptions about sexual behavior and morality on those who aren’t their kind of fundamentalists…and yet you say that it’s the gay marriage proponents who are the aggressors, and those defending the “institution” of hetero marriage their “victims”. An IMAX screen couldn’t do better projection than that.
And for the record, no one is saying to traditional churches that they must be forced to accept same-sex marriages if they don’t want; but that civil law must be adoptable to balance their religious beliefs with those who don’t choose to abide by them. Like it or not, non-traditional sexual lifestyles do exist, and real, live, law-abiding human beings engage in them regularly. As long as they do not violate any other laws and do not coerce others, it should be none of my or your business how they choose to celebrate their adult consenting relationships….and they have as much a right to civil equality in recognition of their relationships and kinship groups as any other American.
Only gross antisexual ignorance and fear of loss of assumed power justifies opposition to marriage equality…and no bit of self-serving sophistry about regulating “human behavior” will change that.
Apparently, that wasn’t the answer that s0lution wanted to hear…and like most right-wing fascists who don’t like other people calling them out on their bullshit arguments, he responded in the usual way: with a screed personally attacking me and resetting all the usual Tea Party/Religious Right talking points, albeit with the usual one-trick deceptions.
I did offer a brief response this morning to Julie’s blog, but I feel that this bit of temper tantrum deserves its own bit of fisking and analysis…so, I will break it — and him — down over here for your viewing pleasure.
Buckle up, Clones…it may get bumpy.
I did not “attack” anything. The only people who are attacking are those seeking to undermine and distort an age old institution.
Defending an existing institution – that has existed for many millennia – is not attacking.
Right…I mean, only our enemies attack; all we do is defend, because we are the ones always under attack from the evil secular humanists/sex pervs/Muslims/atheists who would undermine God’s grand plan for humanity…and our exclusive tax exempt status, and our right to convert everyone. Of course, nothig beats defending something just because it had existed for millenia (so, BTW, has consensual homosexual behavior amongst adults, which probably even predated the growth of Christianity); so why not defend slavery or forced circumcision or hazing on those grounds, too??
Kennerson, you are in no position to comment on the motives of the people you try to demonize, the people you despise. You disrespect the sense of the majority of Americans but no surprise there. And that’s your prerogative because the people you despise allow that right for you. Those with the sense of American values have always been out there to fight for our freedoms, from the beginning, over the years, until even now.
Dude….dude….who the HELL are you to assume MY motives in opposing your favored initiatives?? I didn’t say that I despised those who voted for Proposition 8 or everyone who voted for that proposal, but those who did due to blatant anti-gay prejudice do deserve much more than mere contempt. And remember, this is NOT about “the majority of Americans” and whether or not they support the rights of gay/lesbian folk to have their relationships recognized by the State via civil unions and marriages; this is about the tactics and memes of those who fervently oppose GLBT folks asserting their rights to fair and equal treatment. All of whom, incidentially, happen to be AMERICAN; and quite a few of them even having paid the ultimate sacrifice of fighting for their country to sustain both their and your freedom….even in spite of the harrassment and open prejudice they face.
And no, sonny, I no more need your approval or patronizing sneers to justify my right to speak my views than I need Lydia Lee’s approval, or NOM’s approval, or AHF’s approval, to speak my peace on the condom mandate. My rights as an American citizen and my duty as a sentinent human being are good enough reasons and justifications.
>>>you ignore the basic fact that the most fervent proponents of Prop 8 do indeed lfundamentally and feverently oppose not only the recognition of same-sex marriage, but even the legitimacy and legality of consensual same-sex acts amongst adults<<<
WRONG. PROVE THAT. THAT IS BASELESS. Did someone poll the majority of people who voted? Or are you just making stereotypes?
Ummmm…you did notice the qualifying phrase “the most fervent proponents”, did you?? I was talking about those who promoted and sponsored Prop 8, not those who ultimately voted for it…and their own statements and press releases are the proof. Now, the fact that they were able to garner a small majority of supporters in November 2008, thanks in no large part to their campaign of distortion and distraction, does say plenty about how deep homophobia and prejudice still remain even in one of the most “liberal” states in the Union…but even then, it says not much about the majority of the electorate. (And in fact, most recent polling does show that a majority of Americans do in fact SUPPORT marriage equality; and most Californians would, if given the chance, vote to repeal Prop 8 now.)
Besides that….my main point remains that essential basic human rights are not and should not be subject to a plebisite or a majority vote in a poll. That’s why we have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights….and why California has its own Constitution.
In short, they use their preexisting social and political power to impose THEIR assumptions… blah blah blah. The ones who are trying to impose their will upon others are those trying to destroy the institution as it has existed for many millennia.
Ahhh, this old “the gays are attempting to destroy traditional marriage” trick. Never mind that no proponent of marriage equality has ever called for forcing fundamentalist consevative Christian churches to conduct gay marriages; or that the status of gay marriages or gay civil unions do not affect in any way the status of tradtional marriages or even the doctrine of more conservative Christian churches.
Unless, of course, “the institution” of “traditional marriage” is seen not as a religious sacrement or a civil recognition of a kinship relationship, but as a means of mass social control and discipline and regulation of sexual behavior. Then, of course, the mere recognition of those queers becomes a cosmic threat to right-wing fundamentalists who believe that sex is a privilege to be given only to those making lots and lots of babies for Jesus….and not to be misused or abused for such sinful, Satanic, un-Godly pleasures as butt-fucking or masturbation or slutting out.
Homosexual acts are not illegal now, and I’m not aware of anyone trying to make them illegal (I’m sure you can dig up fringe nutjob from somewhere saying something stupid, but plz spare us).
Oh, but you really need to get out more, s0lution…not only is sodomy still functionally illegal in many states (many of them still have their original sodomy laws on the books, just waiting for a more conservative United States Supreme Court to be shifted enough to the Right to restore their power to enforce such laws); but whole religious institutions hardly considered to be “fringe nutjobs” (would you call Pope Benedict XVI or Richard Land or the Catholic bishops “fringe nutjobs”??) have openly called for the return of sodomy laws and a general crackdown on “sexual libertinism”….which basically consists of all sex acts not involving procreation within marriage.
Non-traditional sexual lifestyles do exist, sure – and real, live, law-abiding human beings engage in them regularly – that’s right – although the numbers are around 2 to 3% – sure that’s OK. And those people and their supporters are ON THE ATTACK against the majority, to change a long standing institution. It’s not going to happen, sorry.
Actually, most surveys put the number of outed gays/lesbians at around 10%, and that doesn’t even cover “straight” people who regularly engage in homosexual” acts; nor does that cover those who engage in non-traditional sexual practices. (The ones involving consensual adults, that is. If you think that I am justifying nonconsensual acts or abuse of non-adults..well, that’s your issue, s0lution, not mine.) And even at that, even if it is just 2%, that 2% deserves the same right to equal protection from abuse and equal rights and responsibilities and treatment as the other 98%. Democracy does NOT equal mob rule.
By the way, many atheists agree – and many atheists voted for prop 8. I wonder why, if your theory is correct that it was a bunch of religious fundamentalists?
Gee…didn’t you just ask me for proof that those who voted for Prop 8 weren’t just religious fanatics or anti-gay bigots?? Yet you can assert that it was “atheists” who voted for Prop 8 without any verification of such?? Moving the goalposts much??
And just because some atheists might support your position does not make it any less corrosive or discrimnatory. Some Democrats used to vote for segregation, too. And plus…why must you assume that I am gay or an atheist??
Gross antisexual ignorance? Fear of loss of assumed power? So now you are attacking and smearing with false insults those who support traditional marriage.
Sophistry about regulating “human behavior ? No one is trying to regulate human behavior by defending marriage from attack. Americans are free to do what they want. You are even free to launch your attacks, as long as you don’t break the law. And you are free to live with the results.
I guess that the shoe fits all too tight for you, right?? So, merely because I make a point of defending marriage equality and the right of GLBT folk to their basic human rights, I am “attacking” conservatives like you?? What’s wrong, s0lution..can’t take the heat? And, exactly what “results” are you implying that I “live with”? That you reserve the right to take away my rights to oppose your campaign to privilege some people over others?
Gay marriage is not, and never was a “human right”. You can make the case for it being a “civil right” – and the “equal rights” angle is probably the best angle, but it still fails in the end.
So, let me break this down for you: Gays and lesbians are human beings. The only difference between them and other human beings is that they engage in acts of sexual love or lust with each other. So, when they assert their claims to the same rights, responsibilities, and protections that other human beings take for granted, that consists of a HUMAN RIGHT…regardless of how some other people may disagree. It is those who would claim to deny them such rights who have the burden of proving why they should be denied such….and simply quoting “Well, ‘traditional marriage’ has existed for thousands of years, and why change all that?” simply won’t wash any more. When it gets right down to it, the only justification for denying GLBT folk basic equality is the same justifications used by bigots and fascists for centuries: deep seated prejudice combined with a fear of a loss of their assumed power and superiority.
I really don’t think the outcome of the Prop 8 vote in California can be attributed to Mormons, just because they supported it. It represented the will of the people there, which you reject now since you lost – the liberal agenda which goes against the will of the people has the best chance of being foisted onto the people by activist judges in the courts.
That’s right, s0lution..go straight to the “activist liberal judges obstructing the will of the people” card. Because that’s all you and your Tea Party allies have left to justify your prejudice and hate. You do know that those “liberal activist judges” were appointed by the same politicians that “the people” put in office, right? Or, do only right-wing activists count as “the people” in your mind??
And if I remember right..I never mentioned “Mormons” anyways, other than the institutional support that the LDS Church hierarchy provided for the boosters of Prop 8.
Oh..and you do know that the same Cali electorate that passed Prop 8 also elected Barack Obama for President by nearly 20 percentage points, right?? Doesn’t he represent plenty of that “liberal agenda” that you so oppose?
Gay people are free to live together and practice their relationships how they want. And that is how it should stay. Your claims that homosexual couples are exactly the same of regular couples is incorrect – you can look at the statistics on that – you will always be able to find some anecdotal evidence of anything you want, a story here, a story there, but look at the stats. They don’t stay together as much, or as long, and they are statistically more promiscuous than their hetero counterparts. And again, they are free to do what they want – but they are not exactly the same.
And that matters….HOW????? How should that be used to deny those gays and lesbians and others who aren’t quite so “promiscuous” from getting their monogamous relationships recognized in the same legal way as heterosexuals?? Or…is it simply just…TEH SECKS that freaks you out?? I mean, marriage sure has done an excellent job of controlling the “promiscuity” of straight people, right?? Right?? RIGHT???
Part of American values is taking responsibility for yourself, and the life you choose to lead. Of course attacks on that particular core value are coming from the far left, which incidentally have adopted this issue as well.
Nothing wrong with taking responsibility at all…of course, it would be nice if those most exercised about lecturing people about “personal responsibility” would first seek to clean out their own advocates about their own indiscrections from their doctrine before they seek to impose their directives on others. Or…establishing their own exclusive monopoly on government and using it as a wedge and hammer to impose their power and hegemony on other folks.
In closing – the gay marriage proponents ARE the aggressors. And you can see even here from Anthony Kennerson’s comments that the gay marriage proponents tend to be disrespectful in their attacks against the defenders of marriage, making off-the-wall accusations and insinuating how ignorant or backward the defenders are. Lydia Lee makes some good points about tax breaks and equal rights – but also tends to generalize that the people who support marriage must be religious zealots. Obviously there is a theme here of taking on those stupid Christians, but there are actually bigger political and cultural concerns to this issue. This issue is best looked at in a secular way. There are forces that try to chip away at everything that makes America strong: from the way the economy and markets work to the strengths of the society. And there are all these “useful idiots” that jump on board with the attacks because it “makes sense” to them.
I hope I have given some good discussion/feedback.
For someone who accuses me of making assumptions about opponents of gay marriage, s0lution sure seems to make some genuine misassumptions about people like me. So, just as he concluded his bash with his principles, allow me to conclude this post with a restatement of mine.
Dude…I am NOT gay. Nor am I an atheist. I am very much a “straight”, hetero middle aged Black man who was borne of Catholic parents, and who have siblings who are very much devout Christians who probably would believe just as you do about “traditional marriage”.
But, unlike you, I do happen to believe that people should be judged by their actions, their deeds, their words, and, most importantly, how they treat their fellow human beings and other sentinent carbon life forms. How they prefer to engage in sexual relations with other consenting adults is NOT a deal breaker for me respecting them as free and equal human beings, or for asserting their rights to the same liberties, responsibilities, and autonomy that all Americans have earned by right of citizenship. If that makes me in your eyes part of the “far left”, then I plead guilty as charged…and I’m damn proud of it, too. Better to be part of the “Far Left” and speak for equality, justice, and truth than to be a part of the fascist Right any day of the week.
You may claim to paint a more “secular” justification for your prejudice against gay/lesbian folk but when all the smoke clears, it comes out to the same old tired antisex bullshit that “Christian” fundamentalists have smeared sexual dissidents and all other heretics with since time immortal: “If you aren’t our kind of Christian and fit your personal sex practices to our narrow definitions, then you should either convert or accept fifth-class status or simply die…and we will make damn sure that you suffer either way until you repent.” I don’t accept that kind of BS from antiporn “feminists” like Gail Dines; do you really think that your brandishment of “knowledge” will be any more effective in intimidating me?? Do you know me very well??
And no, s0lution, tacking your antigay prejudice to the traditional right-wing message of “free markets” and “keeping America strong” and selling it as “secular” isn’t going to cloak the essential bigotry you are promoting here. Been there, done that, watched the movie.
Whether you like it or not, s0lution, people engage in sex, and not just the kind that produces babies during “traditional marriages”. They have been doing so long before religious leaders attempted to drop their laws and edicts to control them, and they will continue to do so in spite of all your efforts to repress and contain those practices that freak your sorry ass out. It’s not “traditional marriage” and the “defense” of it by intimidating and wiping out its competitors that makes America strong; it’s the willingness to accept diversity and tap the resourcefullness of everyone who contributes to the grand plan of shared vision.
In other words, we’re not the threat, s0lution…YOU ARE. Adapt to reality and accept full equality for all, or just get run over by the inevitability of the present and the future..because those of us who believe in equality just aren’t going away quietly. Don’t like it?? Tough cookies, palie. Just do as you would lecture poor people to do: pull yourselves by your own bootstraps and DEAL WITH IT.