Oh, and I thought that she was just doing a Good Cop/Bad Cop scene.
But it seems that Nine Deuce has now totally drank the Kool-Aid, and has dived all in. And she offers this “News Flash” to all us idiots who still can’t understand why she’s so down on those who don’t quite agree with her and her GenderBorgian friends.
Allow me to break down each of her talking points one by one.
The existence of gay porn does not disprove the argument that non-gay porn is degrading to women. There might be a different dynamic going on in a lot of gay porn (I remain unconvinced), but that doesn’t really mean anything other than that maybe gay porn needs to be analyzed by itself rather than under an umbrella with hetero porn. What we’re talking about when we talk about het pornography is the comingling of power with sex, which is THE CENTRAL FEATURE OF PATRIARCHY.
Well…if the existence of gay porn shows that men who are into gay porn don’t quite care about “degrading” women (or, simply like to see men fucking and sucking other men), well, it probably doesn’t prove anything. Unless, you happen to believe, as some of your own allies and bomb throwers just so happen to believe (*cough*Luckynkl *cough, cough* Satsuma *cough*) that male sexual obsession for gay sex only replaces the recipient of gay sex for the woman in the “submissive” (and thusly, “degraded” and “abused”) role. Otherwise, you’re right, it proves not a Goddess damn thing about how straight male desire for porn inherently “degrades” women. That, I guess, is a given that needs no proof whatsoever…at least not to pure “feminist” masters such as you.
Choice does not equal progressiveness. You can choose to do heroin if you want to, and it might feel fucking awesome, but that doesn’t make you a freedom fighter. You can be a feminist and be into BDSM, but you can’t claim that BDSM is feminist. Just because something feels good does not mean it’s feminist.
No, some choices are not necessarily harmless to one’s self or others. Injecting a syringe full of heroin into your body certainly can do much harm to one’s person. Engaging in consensual sex with someone whom you want to be with, and who wants to be with you sharing the pleasures, however, isn’t quite so harmful as injecting heroin, now isn’t it?? Not, at least, unless it fundamentally upsets certain fee-fees of certain lunatic “radicalfeminists.”
And no, ND, you just don’t get to dictate to other women what acts become “feminist” and what acts aren’t. Feminists can be into BDSM, and even feminist who would never do BDSM sex themselves can respect the rights of those women — whether they call themselves feminists or not — who are. Unless you are endowed by the Goddess upstairs or the Rulers Above (hey, wouldn’t the latter be, like..a PATRIARCHY?!?!?!) with special powers to dictate their personal likes, then I don’t think you have the authority to read their minds and rule their brains.
F/m BDSM (generally) does not fetishize and sexualize the oppression of people who are still oppressed. Therefore, its existence does not prove that there’s nothing problematic about the mingling of sex with oppression in M/f BDSM, burlesque or not. Again, it’s a matter of the need for separate analysis.
Oh, hold the fuck up here….so female dominant/male submissive sex is perfectly OK with you even if it goes horribly awry because it doesn’t involve mixing sex with “oppression”??? In other words, it’s perfectly OK to harm men BECAUSE men innately harm women by merely THINKING about dominating them through sex?? I thought that radicalfeminism was opposed to ALL forms of domination and submission equally across the board?? Ahhh..OOPS.
Questioning a practice does not equal abuse or oppression. And you can’t spend 15 paragraphs explaining that BDSM, as a “choice,” fits the (warped) definition of feminism and then compare the consequences of your choice to the oppression that lesbians and gay men face. Unless you are ready to say that female submission is innate or that being gay is a choice.
I guess that means, then, that religious conservatives really do have a right to question BDSM sex as a “choice” on their terms?? Because , ND, if you are saying that being a gay person really isn’t a choice, but being into BDSM sex IS one that can be “undone”, when what’s to say that that Christian Rightist might not use your argument to support the opposite view (i.e., that BDSM sex is merely a perverse “lifestyle” that defies God’s plan for sex, just as homosexuality or non-procreative sex does?? And why should we not compare you to the fundies when you use terms like “consequences of your ‘choices'”??
In order for me to oppress you, I have to be in charge of something that directly affects your life. I’m not.
Ahhhh, WRONG…..all you have to do in order to oppress someone is to deny that person his right to full humanity and dismiss his/her right to free will. You and your GenderBorg sisters do that almost every other post.
If I were truly denying anyone’s agency, I’d refuse to question their assumptions and behavior. I assume we are all responsible for the choices that we make, even though social forces tend to influence those choices. I know that there are people who are aware that M/f BDSM and/or porn are tinged (or saturated) with patriarchal oppression and choose to participate in them anyway, either because there is some benefit in doing so or because they think they can do them “the right way.” I doubt that’s possible, so I’m asking people who think it is to explain how that might be. Would it be better for me to treat other adult human beings like babies who can’t bear to be asked defend their beliefs?
Well…it would help if you actually respected those who attempt to defend themselves from your bromides, rather than simply use their answers as fuel for your cannons to shoot them down even more.
I can have a theoretical problem with something and speak my mind about it without specifically addressing an individual. If you don’t fit the definition of the kind of person I’m discussing, don’t take it personally. Everyone has the right to judge everyone, but we don’t have the right to enforce our judgements. Therein lies the difference between free speech and oppression.
Oh, why should we even take it seriously?? Especially when you deliberately temper your responses with ad hominem attacks on people’s looks or personal tastes, or basically call people you disagree with as rapists and child molesters even when they have done nothing wrong?? Even when you attempt to wave the exclusive “feminist” flag to rip down anyone who happens to disagree with your analysis of their personal practices?? When you even go as far as to deny and dismiss their own freakin’ testimonials about their lack of personal harm?? Gee, now that’s a really good question there, ND….why should we take you seriously??
Your bigotry and ignorance, on the other hand, should be taken very seriously, simply because it is being spewed in the name of a movement that is supposed to stand for something progressive rather than reactionary.
This is “Logic 101”, ND?? More like Bullcrap One.
The comments section is dominated by the usual voices with the usual boilerplate…until right to the end, where ND exposes her true paternalistic self. First, the comment before hers as a background:
[Comment by thorne on 2/26/09 @ 6:00 PM]
“Gayle – No shit, right? It’s incredible to hear the language of the oppressed co-opted by people who fetishize oppression.”
Did your read the part where we explained that we can be jailed or lose our kids? have you heard of the spanner case? Does it amuse you to play “this group is more oppressed than that group”? Our community has real life problems hate speach being the least of them.
We do not fetishize oppresion. What we do is power exchange. Power exchange does not magically turn evil whe it is MF instead of FM or FF or whatever.
I get that you want to make the point that the kink community is just and excuse for a bunch of male sadists to justify their abuse of woman. I get that the hundreds of comments by men and woman and the ocean of websites that explain otherwise will make no impression here.
I am also not taken in by the wide eyed, “all we are doing is questioning bdsm. If you lifestyle is ok why does it bother you when I we question it?”
It depends what the questionis doesn’t it?
Is it just innocent inquiry when someone wants to know if gay men are more likely to abuse children, and then asks the question over and over?
Oh, but get a load of ND’s reply to that one:
[Posted by Nine Deuce on 2/26/09 @ 6:27 PM]
Stop comparing your situation to the plight of homosexuals. And stop comparing my arguments to those of asshole homophobes. There is something to the idea that M/f BDSM fetishizes women’s oppression, and you aren’t going to take attention from that by setting up a false and easily discredited analogy.
Why are people getting fired for being into BDSM? Ah Talking about sex at work isn’t cool, whether you’re straight, gay, into BDSM, or celibate. It’s just not appropriate. And to be honest, if I were a parent, I’d be concerned if my child’s other parent were into BDSM because I wouldn’t want my child exposed to it. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think you ought to have the right to normalize that kind of behavior in front of children who haven’t got the critical thinking abilities to understand what’s going on.
We all know that the vast majority of child molesters are straight men, which has been shown in study after study. I’m asking the questions about BDSM because what I’ve seen on a lot of websites amounts to serious emotional and physical abuse, and because I have, whatever you guys want to claim to the contrary, read women’s writings about being upset and frightened by the treatment they receive. The fact that I’m not yet convinced that what you’re into is cool and meshes with feminism doesn’t make me dishonest, it just means that I’ve yet to be convinced that black is white and up is down.